Dr Cho:
You know, before you come to prison you don't know what you’ll meet.
And I came in here and I’ve made... Oh God, my life has been enriched by the people I've met here.

[Røverradion theme music]

Lukaku:
Welcome to a special edition of Røverradion, the Norwegian prison radio. My name is Lukaku, and today we have something as unusual as a political prisoner visiting us. Pizarro, what's happening in today's broadcast?

Pizzaro:
Yes, brother. Today in Oslo Prison, there is a man. Many of us call him the General. He is the High Commander of an organization called Ambazonian Government Council. This is one of several separatist groups in Cameroon who wants independence for a part of the country they call Ambazonia.

Lukaku:
Okay. Cameroon... I'm from Africa, so I recognize Cameroon and where it is. Cameroon is ruled by the world's oldest president, 92-year-old Paul Biya.

Pizzaro:
Oh, yeah.

Lukaku:
Many believe he's in reality ruling as a dictator, and he's been the most powerful in the country since the beginning of the 80s. And I think he has been Prime Minister since 1975.

Pizzaro:
That's a long time ago, brother. He has had the top position, he’s been the Patron there for years.

Lukaku:
Africa, you know.

Pizzaro:
50 plus, huh? Alright. Our guest has been in exile from Cameroon since the mid-90s. After first living in Germany for a period, he decided to come to Norway and has been here for the last twenty years. And then I think we'll do the interview in English, because it's probably a little easier for our guest.

Lukaku:
But why is he actually imprisoned?

Pizzaro:
Well, brother, he was imprisoned in September last year, charged of breaking the criminal law, paragraph 108, that is inciting to crimes against humanity.

Lukaku:
Well, those are charges of a completely different kind.

Pizzaro:
That's absolutely right. So now we're going to welcome our guest, and we're going to get to know a little more about who he is, and why he's in Oslo prison.

[Jingle]

Pizzaro:
Welcome, Dr. Cho Ayaba, to Røverradion.

Dr Cho:
Thank you very much.

Pizzaro:
You are held here in Oslo prison, in detention for almost a year now, right?

Dr Cho:
Absolutely.

Pizzaro:
Yes. On charges of inciting to crime against humanity. What does that really mean? Can you describe it in your own words?

Dr Cho:
They have accused me of making speeches and making publications on Twitter and Facebook that have caused our forces fighting against Cameroon to attack civilians in Ambazonia. Crimes against humanity are a series of crimes. They could constitute maybe torture, they could constitute rape, they could constitute attacking.

Pizzaro:
A lot of different crimes.

Dr Cho:
And so my speeches, what I write on my Twitter account, the police said it has resulted in people committing some of these crimes.

Pizzaro:
Some of these crimes. Yes.

Dr Cho:
I could be in prison maybe 15 years or any time longer. But the charges are fake.

Pizzaro:
You plead not guilty, right?

Dr Cho:
Yes, of course. I'm not guilty because there are no crimes. There are no crimes against humanity. There is no incitement to commit crimes against humanity. We have conducted ourselves respecting the Geneva Conventions on International Humanitarian Law. My arrest is a political conspiracy.

Pizzaro:
What kind of responsibility do you have for violation committed by your organization?

Dr Cho:
As a leader, I take full responsibility, and I have said that. I take full responsibility. That is why when Cameroon declared war on us, the first thing we did was to produce a code of conduct.

Pizzaro:
Can you explain a little bit?

Dr Cho:
A code of conduct is like how our soldiers should conduct themselves.

Pizzaro:
Okay.

Dr Cho:
Respecting human rights, make sure no one is subjected to torture. We are very clear that rape is a crime which we will not tolerate. We are very clear about the protection of our civilians. But this is war. And as I said to the police, and I say it publicly, under my leadership for eight years, you’ ha’ve not had more than 30 civilians who have been killed. You don't have that. And so I take full responsibility for what I say. And I think the police has misunderstood because they have not taken my speeches into context. I make my speeches to strengthen the faith of our people, not to give up.

Pizzaro:
Exactly, to strengthen your people.

Dr Cho:
To strengthen our people. So when you listen to my speech today, you might like, “oh, that's really strong”. But if you will listen to my speech during World War two

Pizzaro:
yeah?

Dr Cho:
you will say wow this is inspiring

Pizzaro:
Inspiring, yeah

Dr Cho:
So for a Norwegian listening to my speech today in peacetime they may feel like well it's really strong but if Norway is attacked today and I make that same speech...

Pizzaro:
they will feel otherwise

Dr Cho:
...they will feel otherwise. So that's the misconception that they have about my speeches or my Twitter messages.

[Jingle]

Pizzaro:
Some say that the conflict revolves around language, French versus English. What do you think about that?

Dr Cho:
No, it's not about language. It's about existence. Cameroon has never recognized us as human beings. Cameroon has never recognized our humanity. The question in Ambazonia and Cameroon has nothing to do with language. It has something to do with another country invading our country in 1961.

We were the first democracy in Africa. We were the first country in Africa that organized free and fair elections. Ambazonia, between 1954 and 1960, we got three prime ministers.

Cameroon came in, invaded our country, dismantled our parliament, dismantled our government, and then dismantled our economic system, trying to make us slaves in our country, in our own home, and still does not give us respect, bullies us, call us les ennemis de la maison, enemies of the house, call us two cubes of sugar that they can dissolve.

Lukaku:
Okay, if we look at some of the things you said, it seems you really intend to kill or what is your story?

Dr Cho:
No, no. There are standard international practice. Those who collaborate with the enemies are considered enemies of freedom. It happened here in Norway in the 40’s. Those who collaborated with the Nazis were seen as enemies of Norway. Even women, even women who slept with German soldiers were described as «tyskertøs», that's German bitches, and their hairs were shaved.

We have said, we are going to arrest you and we are very clear about that.

We have 20,000 Ambazonians have been killed and the majority of them were killed because you have spies and traitors who work with Cameroon forces. More than 1,000 villages were burned, because these spies, they embed in Cameroon with Cameroon soldiers, go to the villages, show them the places, they burn it down. The greatest threat to our freedom, to our security, are the spies and collaborators who have enabled this regime to be in power for 56 years.

And we are very clear we've been betrayed by the international community. And we are determined this time to end this regime and give our people hope and freedom.

And let me also state: the facts are important. When they write all of this nonsense as charges, Cameroon has killed more than 20,000 civilians. Under my leadership in the past eight years, you don't have more than 30 civilian casualties.

We have code of conduct on how our forces should behave. They have to protect our civilian population. No torture, no rape. We have also made it very clear in our manifesto: all of us, including myself, after independence, we are going to establish a post-conflict justice system that will involve restorative justice and retributive justice to hold everybody accountable for what you did during the liberation war.

[Jingle]

Lukaku:
Uh to understand this all of this more i think we must know more about you, Mr Cho. Could you please tell us about your childhood and youth in Cameroon?

Dr Cho:
I'm the last child in our family and my father was in the British army during the Second World War. My father died when I was 11. He was a wonderful guy. I knew my dad not being able to walk because he had a chronic back pain after the war. I was always like massaging the back, massaging the back. And...

My father fought to ensure that Hitler did not conquer Europe and conquer the world. And this is one of the things that makes me sometimes very disappointed with Norway.

Pizzaro:
Explain, please.

Dr Cho:
Yes, because during World War II, while my father was fighting with the British, the Norwegian government was in London. Without my father and others who fought, we don't know maybe Hitler would have prevailed.

All through history you find a situation where the people who are being victimized are granted some level of protection. You found South Africa took Israel to the International Court of Justice. You found The Gambia took Myanmar to the International Court of Justice. With all the crimes that Cameroon has committed against our people, even against its own people. Norway does not have the courage to refer Cameroon to the ICC.

My family paid the price. I grew up being a rebel against injustice from very young.

I've been fighting for more than 37 years. And so that has been my life. My life has been fighting against all forms of injustices. I am fighting against the longest serving president in Africa, who's been in power for close to 56 years, first as prime minister and then as president.

Pizzaro:
Yeah. Tell me a little bit about that that because that's a very long time. How can a man be in power for such a long time?

Dr Cho:
Because he has been supported by the West, he has been supported by France and others and he has used enormous violence in the past 56 years to make sure that nobody can speak. Those who spoke went to jail, those who went on the street as students were killed or you were sent into exile.

[Jingle]

Lukaku:
But how did you come to leave Ambazonia?

Dr Cho:
After I was dismissed from the university, we created the Southern Cameroons Youth League to fight for our independence.

Pizzaro:
Yeah, because you were expelled...

Dr Cho:
Oh, I was not only expelled, I was one of the most wanted persons for over one year. I was living from house to house, hiding from the military.

Pizzaro:
Like a criminal?

Dr Cho:
Of course, because the Cameroon government had killed more than 60 of our members. It had arrested more than 300. So we spent 30 days on a ship.

Pizzaro:
30 days?

Dr Cho:
Yes, yes.

Pizzaro:
In a ship?

Dr Cho:
On a ship.

Pizzaro:
That you weren't supposed to be.

Dr Cho:
Yes.

Pizzaro:
So where did you hide?

Dr Cho:
Oh, God.

The ship was carrying timber, thousands. And we were inside. That is why sometimes when I listen to like the waves, I still have trauma because we were inside the ship. The only sound you were hearing was the wave banging the ship. Total darkness.

We didn't have food anymore. So we knew that if we get out, we may be thrown into the sea. So we made a decision. One person should stay in, two person go out. If the two persons are killed, then the other person may survive and let our families know.

Pizzaro:
How... Just making that decision, just in that moment, how was it?

Dr Cho:
Yes, making that decision. Thank God I was in the ship with my best friend, who is my defense chief now. He's in Minnesota. The other guy is a Cameroonian, who is the ones who organize the ship stuff. He said he would stay in and better die of hunger than be thrown into the sea.

And I and my best friend, Benedict, we said, okay, let's go out and face the music.

And we went out and the Captain, the Superintendent, came and they were yelling and yelling. And I explained to them, we were running away from dictatorship. And they took us and gave us a place where they pack some stuff to sleep there. We were sitting there at night. We just said, well, maybe they come and open the door and drop us into the sea.

They knocked the door at about one o'clock. I looked at Benedict, he looked at me... Look, we have been prepared all our lives. Dead or alive we wanted to be free. He looked at me and I looked at him, and we said the hour of reckoning has come.

They opened the door and they were smiling: “come come come!” and we were like “what the hell is going on?” They had, that our friend who was inside, he had come out to try to see if he could find food. That's how they arrested him. So they brought him with us and we were like, “come on, you're crazy, how could you let – what if all of us are killed!” But luckily, after a few days the ship anchored, they told us that the ship was going to Germany and Mexico, so we could make a choice. We were just too tired so we said okay drop us off in Germany. That's how we ended up in Germany

Pizzaro (in Norwegian):
Hey Lukaku, what a story! Just imagine how it is, just... We actually think we're going to die, now. Someone knocks the door, and they think, okay, fine...

Lukaku (in Norwegian):
We’re going to die.

Pizzaro (in Norwegian):
We’re going to die.

[Jingle]

Pizzaro:
Could we ask you, how did you get from Germany to Norway?

Dr Cho:
And this is one of the fantasies we have always looked at. You know, when we do a struggle like this, we look at every different country, their model. Whether in education, their governance, management of their economic resources. And we've always looked at the Norwegian model.

I came to Norway also because in 1961, Norway voted. There were 61 countries that voted for Ambazonian independence and Norway voted for our independence.

You look at Norway's history. Norway was under Denmark. It didn't stay there. It was under Sweden. It didn't stay there. Norway is one of the countries that has voted twice to stay out of the European Union. So Norway has preserved its own independence. So it has been a model, the way it manages the Norwegian fund.

Ambazonia is rich in oil. And we have looked at the way Norway has managed its oil funds. And we think we will replicate this model to manage our oil funds, to be able to make sure that our people are empowered.

[Jingle]

Lukaku:
Even from exile, you managed to lead a fight in a country 8,000 kilometer away. How did you become the leader of your organization?

Dr Cho:
That question is very difficult. Maybe the gift of my character, my conviction, and my ability to communicate the pain of our people, make our people to trust me. It's that same gift that is being used against me.

I am an elected leader. I was elected 2013 as the president of the Ambazonian Governing Council. My mandate ended in February and I was supposed to get out, but I received a letter from my organization that because I'm in prison, they will not do the election.

Ambazonia trusts me because you cannot...

Pizzaro:
They have faith in you.

Dr Cho:
They have faith in me. You cannot corrupt me. You cannot bribe me. Even if you put me here for 20 years, I'm not going to change. Africa, not only Ambazonia, Africa has to change. We must stop depending on Europe or China or America. With all what we have, we are slaves, everybody. We're living in fear.

You just look at me as a black man. You don't look at whether I have a PhD. That does not matter. Where you come from can give you respect or disrespect. Okay? If they hear he may come from from Somalia, what do they think? Chaos, war. He comes from Ambazonia, what do they think? Chaos, war. You may stand there, you say you come from America. Wow. Freedom. Peace. Justice.

We must change our destiny. We must change the destiny of our people.

Pizzaro:
So Dr. Cho, why choose fighting with weapons instead of political activism and other non-violent methods?

Dr Cho:
That's how we started in the past. I've been on the street since 1989.

Pizzaro:
Yeah, because you were earlier telling us about the school, the universities in Ambazonia...

Dr Cho:
Yes! We have never chose to fight with weapons. We have been on the street since 1989, fighting for freedom of assembly, freedom of speech. We were on the street... As Ambazonians, we never had any university in English. So if you finished Videregående skole (Norwegian High School), you had to go and study in French, which was impossible for us.

I was on the street fighting for the creation of a university. I was the first student to be admitted in that university and the second student to be dismissed. When we were attacked in that university, we were on the street campaigning peacefully.

Pizzaro:
Only with words?

Dr Cho:
Only with words. This is one of my advisors, Abdul Karim.

Pizzaro (in Norwegian):
We’re shown a photo of...

Dr Cho:
Yes. He has been given life sentence by Cameroon. Life sentence.

Pizzaro:
For..?

Dr Cho:
This is a campaign by Amnesty International.

Pizzaro:
Life sentence for?

Dr Cho:
Just for being a peaceful activist for Ambazonian independence.

Pizzaro:
Basically, just for wanting to be free?

Dr Cho:
I call him my junior brother. He is one of our strongest voices in Ambazonia. You know, Ambazonia has a muslim community. He is one of our strongest muslim community voices. So we didn't choose war.

2016, lawyers and teachers went to the street telling Cameroon you cannot send people who speak French into our schools. You cannot send judges who speak French into our courts. The teachers were arrested. The Head of the Teacher’s Union has been in prison for seven years. The lawyers are in jail, professors are in jail...

This is a European Union report. This is it. Of April.

Pizzaro:
What does it say?

Dr Cho:
“The persecution of journalists in Cameroon.” These are (showing photos) Ambazonians who are in jail for seven years. This one, BBC Manchu, he took a coffin and went on the street. “Give me freedom or give me death”. He's been in prison for eight years.

Pizzaro:
Eight years?

Dr Cho:
Eight years. Now.

Pizzaro:
It's unbelievable.

Dr Cho:
After that, the government brought helicopters, guns, and we decided that we will have to defend ourselves. In the face of this level of brutality with a fascist government that does not understand dialogue, negotiation, compromise, or coexistence, we will have to defend our people. That is how we invoked the right under the United Nations Charter, the right under the African Charter of Human and People's Rights in its Article 20, Paragraph 1 to 4, the right to defend ourselves for our existence and self-preservation.

[Jingle]

Lukaku:
How do you regard the pain you and your comrades cause civilians caught in crossfire?

Dr Cho:
We don’t cause pain to our civilians. Even before this phase of our struggle, our people have been living in pain and misery, under Cameroon's occupation. The pain and misery in Ambazonia is caused by Cameroon's occupation, its brutality, torture, and the massive killing of our people. We are defenders, we are victims of the system of occupation.

And as I said to you people, it doesn't mean that our soldiers don't do certain things that are unacceptable. But they are very small. After independence, we will hold everybody accountable, there will be accountability.

Listen, there are so many things that are very painful. But you find a way to suppress the emotions, the pain. Because so many people are buried. I have buried more than 500 soldiers. So many civilians. We have 3,000 Ambazonians in prison in Cameroon who have been there for eight, nine years. And so when I look at myself being here for nine months, I cannot complain. When I compare what our people have gone through, I cannot complain, honestly.

So when I think that Norway will betray me, the same Norway that was in negotiations in Canada when Cameroon asked to negotiate, the same Norway that invited our Defense forces here in Oslo for a meeting with the UN and Cameroon forces. And then turn around, a few months later, you come and pick me up from my house and you're showing me internet messages.

When a criminal, a fascist who came to power when Erna Solberg was 7 years, Jens Stoltenberg was 9 years, Støre was 8 years, he's been in power for 56 years. You don't have the courage to take him up to the International Criminal Court.

Pizzaro:
And do something about it.

Dr Cho:
And do something. You come and arrest the one man standing against him.

When somebody threatens Europe, that person is a fascist. Everybody must stand against that person. When somebody threatens us down there in Africa, it's their friend. They embrace him. This is the hypocrisy that is threatening the world

[Jingle]

Lukaku:
So your activism got you in jail. Looking back do you have any regrets? If you could start over would you choose to do something differently?

Pizzaro:
Very good question!

Dr Cho:
Now, that's a good question. Uh no I don't have regrets.

Pizzaro:
I don't think you can have regrets, right, in this kind of movement.

Dr Cho:
No, I don't. You know, last 17. Mai (Norwegian Constitutional Day) – since I came to Norway, I've attended every 17. Mai – there was a lady who made a speech in 17. Mai in Hobøl, and she said to everybody, she said, you see, we take our freedom for granted.

When you sit in Norway, you can go and vote, and your vote counts. You can speak and go home safely. There is democracy, and we take it for granted. That across the world, many people don't have this opportunity. Living here in Norway, being out here and looking at what I left behind, the only regret I may have is that I did not fight harder.

Pizzaro:
So you will say that your only regret...

Dr Cho:
The only regret is that I have not fought hard enough.

Pizzaro:
Yeah, I understand.

Lukaku:
Very good answer.

[Jingle]

Dr Cho:
You know, before you come to prison you don't know what you’ll meet.

Pizzaro:
Yeah.

Dr Cho:
And I came in here and I’ve met... Oh God, my life has been enriched by the people I've met here. Yes, we've played football, we have laughed. You've just seen wonderful people with whom, you know, you can go through this pain and still have a smile. And so I'm so happy also to have met you guys, my football mates.

Lukaku:
Thank you a lot.

Pizzaro:
Thank you, General. Thank you very much.

Dr Cho:
And to you also for giving me the chance.

Pizzaro (in Norwegian):
And so we end today’s episode of Røverradion from Oslo Prison. My name is Pizzaro.

Lukaku:
Lukaku.

Lukaku & Pizzaro:
Peace out!

[Røverradion ending theme]

Issam (in Norwegian):
Dr. Cho Lucas Ayaba is being held in custody at Oslo Prison, charged under Section 108 of the Penal Code for 'incitement to crimes against humanity.'

He himself believes that the charge is unfounded and that he is, in reality, imprisoned for exercising his freedom of speech — in other words, that he is a political prisoner.

Røverradion has therefore requested a comment from Amnesty International, where political advisor Gerald Folkvord had this to say:

‘Amnesty International has no comment on the indictment itself, but there is documented evidence of widespread human rights violations by the authorities in Cameroon.

Amnesty has also found documentation of brutal abuses against the civilian population committed by various armed groups, including the Ambazonia Governing Council and its affiliated Ambazonia Defence Forces.’

Because it is the National Criminal Investigation Service (Kripos) that had him detained, we have also asked them for a comment. Police Prosecutor Anette Berger writes:

‘We can confirm that this person is charged with incitement to crimes against humanity, and that Kripos is still investigating the case. Beyond that, we do not comment on details of ongoing investigations.’